7SU: Understanding AI / The Environmental Costs of AI Are Surging – What Now?

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program.

Good evening everyone. I'm Liz Baldwin

and I am a senior librarian here at

SNFL. Welcome to Understanding AI, the

environmental costs of AI are surging.

What now? Tonight's event is the second

program in our series, Understanding AI

in collaboration with data and society.

We are delighted to have you all join us

tonight at the Stavvers New York

Foundation Library. Whether you're

joining us in person or online, before

we begin, I would like to take this

opportunity to thank the Stavis Naros

Foundation for making programs like this

evening's conversation possible.

Before handing the event over to our

moderator, I would like to encourage you

all to visit our website to check out

future events in this series and other

seven stories up programs happening this

fall.

Join me now in welcoming our moderator

for this evening, Tamara Anise.

Okay, I didn't fall. That's good.

Good start.

Can everyone hear me? Okay. Yeah. Great.

Um, so thank you all so much for coming

and thank you also to our wonderful

partner, the Stavos New York Foundation

Library. Um, so I wanted to do a little

bit of scene setting today before we

begin with our conversation.

All of us are drowning in contradictory

messages about AI. We hear that it will

simultaneously create prosperity and

mass unemployment.

We hear that it will solve and worsen

and climate problems, revolutionize

healthcare while also endangering our

children through harmful chat bots.

Meanwhile, right now, we're all living

with AI's real impacts. Creative workers

are losing their jobs. AI is being

introduced in K through2 schools and

higher ed. And communities are grappling

with AI data centers popping up in their

backyards.

Yet, many of us also find tools like

ChatGBT

genuinely useful in our everyday lives.

How should we make sense of these tools,

their social impacts, and the politics

surrounding them?

Sorry, balancing.

As a publicly funded research and policy

institute, data in a society centers the

public interest in our work, just like

our partner. So, what does it mean to

understand AI through the lens of the

public's interest rather than the

interests of large corporations that

dominate the media and PR landscape?

We're very excited that you're here to

join us in this effort to tell a

different story about AI. Today's

conversation is about AI and the

environment, and we have two more events

coming up this fall in October and

November. We hope that you'll join us

for all four sessions.

AI's environmental impacts have come

under public scrutiny. While we might

see different estimations of how much

one chat GBT query costs in terms of

carbon emissions, energy use, or water

use, today we're going to think about AI

as an ecology. AI is an infrastructure

and AI is a form of power. And we will

unpack all of those things for you,

don't worry. Um, how are communities

around the world being affected by the

growth of AI infrastructures like data

centers and their various repercussions

for public health and the environment?

And how can communities fight back

against powerful tech companies and

their interests? I'm joined today by two

leading experts in the field to help us

understand these complex relationships.

First, we have Jasmine McNeely, who is

an attorney, critical public interest

technologist, and a social scientist who

studies merging media and technology

with a view toward influencing law and

policy. And also, Sanja Nepal, who is an

engineer, environmental justice

researcher, and a systems thinker

working at the intersection of

infrastructure, climate, and technology.

Um, so I thought that we should begin

the conversation by introducing

ourselves a little bit and telling us

you all where we're coming from and why

we're all researching and organizing

around AI's environmental impacts. So

personally I worked on a sustainability

team within a large tech company but in

my current role as a research and policy

nonprofit person I am interested in

helping engineers within tech companies

better understand how the technologies

that they're designing might affect

people even people who are not directly

using the products that they put out.

While tech companies usually do release

metrics about the energy efficiency of a

AI models that they produce and they

might think about the impacts of the

technologies that they create uh on

users, people who are directly using

their products, they don't usually think

about the downstream impacts on the

communities who live next door to a

massive data center or an e-waste site.

So much of my work at data in society

focuses on public participation in

technology development and assessment as

a form of accountability. Trying to

figure out not only how to measure

particular kinds of harms that

technology may cause, but also looking

at how we might mitigate them through

collective action. So how did each of

you get involved in the research that

you're doing around AI's environmental

impacts and what are the big projects

that you're focused on right now? Um

should we start with Sanja? Yeah, sure.

Thanks everyone. Uh very excited to be

here. So yeah, I mean I came into this

work broadly through thinking about

questions at the intersection of

environmental justice and technology. Um

I have a background in electrical

engineering and I used to be an

environmental sensing scientist. So I

studied air quality. I built tools for

scientists studying air quality and I

recently switched fields to go into

energy and energy policy. Um, and I was

just really fascinated because I think

data centers are such a nexus of all of

these different questions. There are air

quality and environmental uh degradation

issues. There are electricity and like

facility sighting issues. Um, and so I'm

really interested in data centers as a

pressing environmental justice question

um, in the 21st century and how we think

about it explicitly with an EJ framing.

Um I run an organization called the

Rooted Futures Lab. Um which works at

the intersection of environmental

justice and tech. Um and we just

actually launched a data centers and EJ

program where we're focused on building

a dashboard uh for local policy makers

and activists who are working around

let's say uh local data center sighting

and trying to think about how we can

build technology that's in the public

interest in accordance with what we've

developed um environmental justice and

tech principles. So that's kind of my

framing as I'm coming into this trying

to tie a whole bunch of different

threads together. Um and I'm never bored

because there's a lot going on in this

space.

Jasmine McNeely. Hi, good afternoon

everyone. Evening. Uh I am on faculty at

the University of Florida and I also

direct the infrastructure for

communities, ecology for data uh hub uh

which focuses a lot on the implications

the impacts of technology including

artificial intelligence. In 2023 through

2024

I was a senior fellow at Mosilla and my

project focused on rural artificial

intelligence and that is the

implications of AI for rural

communities. Not that it doesn't have

implications for urban communities at

all, but for

a community that is marginalized

differently than urban settings. What

does artificial intelligence mean? How

do people want or not want artificial

intelligence and the associated

infrastructure including the data um to

be used and used against them and what

are the influences happening currently

and of course climate, environment,

waste, pollution are all a part of that

conversation and uh there is a der of

real talking about that. Uh, of course

there's a talk about the use of

artificial intelligence in the

agricultural sector for productivity and

sensing, but not about the implications

or the impacts of it on water, land,

labor, and all of the connected things.

And so that's my interest.

Yeah, thank you. That is such a good

segue to the next question also. And I

think this idea that we hear a refrain

over and over again of AI for climate

that we're going to build more AI to

help uh you know mitigate climate change

and solve day-to-day environmental

problems and yet we see the giant costs

of AI really not factored in to that

kind of calculation. Um so Jasmine as we

were talking about in our premeating we

were really um thinking about AI as an

ecology and the fact that it relies of

course on global supply chain. So you

know we we might think about AI as the

way that we you know interface with it.

We might think of it as a textbased

chatbot that we interact with on a phone

or a laptop or an image that we generate

through a prompt. Um but of course it is

actually connected to networks of labor

and it depends on a whole host of

natural resources and material realities

while also being informed by social

inequalities. I often think about the

fact that the communities that are

becoming sites for data center

investment particularly uh in states

where there's a lot of fossil fuel

infrastructure um but also not a lot of

connectivity for the folks who actually

live there um and the people who were

also dealing with critical mining

operations as well are really not

necessarily benefiting economically and

may not even have digital access or

connectivity. Um, so how do both of you

situate though the environmental impacts

of AI? What does the public need to

know? Jasmine, we'll start with you this

time.

Oh, I mean there's so much to know,

right, about the environmental, climate,

and I would say life and public health

impacts of not just data centers or

server farms. remember they were called

server farms back in the day, but also

about the other uses of artificial

intelligence that are not necessarily

data center connected but have

environmental implications, right? Um I

think that the public should know one

whenever there is new I'm going to say a

new technology there is always that

connect technology is always connected

to a person place or thing and it always

touches several other person's people or

things in particular communities and

when there has to be infrastructure for

a technology that infrastructure has to

go somewhere and it will impact it's not

if it will it will impact

uh the community where it's set. Now in

the case of artificial intelligence, it

is I would say only amplifying the

impact of already

um polluting infrastructure

already

um infrastructure that already has

public health implications whether it's

for

uh particullet like respiratory

particullet or water and uh access and

water pollution.

Also, if we think further um into where

the minerals that we use for technology

to be built come from and that

environmental impact. So there's a lot

of connections that are there that are

that fade into the background uh that we

don't recognize. But if we start making

the connections, we can start looking at

these larger and long-term and

short-term impacts on different

communities with regard to the

environment.

Yeah, totally. I mean, like everything

you said, absolutely. I think something

a phrase that I say a lot uh at Rooted

Futures Lab when we teach students is

that the internet is a place. Um you

know I think that there is on purpose a

lot of language that kind of obfiscates

or kind of is really vague in terms of

like what are we even talking about like

AI it's in the cloud you know don't

worry about it and so I think that that

vagueness might be on purpose sometimes

you know to kind of maybe not really get

into the specifics of what the actual

impact uh is but I I agree that there is

so so so much to know. I think that in

the climate and environmental space

sometimes there's a tendency to really

put a lot of weight into information

gaps. Oh, if only we knew a little bit

more about climate change, then we would

have action when in reality perhaps

we've known about climate change since

before I was born and it's really kind

of like power structures and uh that

that are holding us back from moving

forward. But I actually do think that

when it comes to the material impacts of

AI, there is a legitimate information

gap because of that vagueness and that

obfiscation and that you know local

government officials for example and

people on the ground who are trying to

decide does our community want this data

center? What is it going to do? Is it

actually beneficial to us? I do think

that there's legitimately a lot of

confusion about wait sorry we're in

Arizona um you know climate change is

making drought more like is this

actually going to affect like the water

in my kids's school like how do we know

that you know do these tech companies

who are building data centers treat this

as a trade secret and kind of get away

with it in that way so I think that

there's just there's so much to know and

that could be a three-hour conversation

in and of itself um and we're trying to

build this dashboard at Rooted Futures

Lab to be kind of a clearing house for a

lot of this data in the same place to be

able to help fill a little bit of that

information gap and then move us forward

into kind of challenging some of those

power structures.

Yeah. And I I think it's so interesting

when we're talking about the role of

data centers right now. So just quickly

I wanted to gauge um I know that a lot

of you are also probably in town for

climate week. So the results might be a

little bit skewed. Um but have we all

like a basic working definition of what

a data center is?

Yeah. Um, has anyone actually been to a

data center?

Do you ever do you see one regularly

where you are? There aren't many that

are like visible in New York City. Um,

but uh, so you know, this is something

that is not totally new, right? Like we

need data centers to power the internet

in general. Um, and you know the idea

that you have these basic like massive

warehouses that are full of servers to

run cloud computing. This is not a new

concept and they, you know, took energy

and water before, but what we're seeing

right now is a massive investment and a

massive expansion both from tech

companies and from governments. Um, and

so I think maybe we could put into

perspective a little bit. Maybe we can

get into the nitty-gritty details, but I

feel like all of us swim in it to the

point where maybe we're not articulating

it all the time. Um, but you know, what

are the ramifications? So, like what is

actually happening on the ground? What

does it mean if a you know really

massive hyperscaler is permitted in your

area? And what kind of what does it mean

for things like housing or agriculture

um or other forms of land use? Um what

are the ramifications? Of course, you

know, Jasmine, your your work is more

focused on water. Um and Sanjana, yours

is on energy. So thinking about what

this means for people in their everyday

lives. Um so what are some of the

pressing issues that you see? And I I

just want to throw out a statistic. So

the International Energy Agency has

forecasted that global data center

energy consumption will more than double

by 2030. And the the fact of the matter

is that companies are really um

intensifying fossil fuel production in

part because of their relationships to

oil and gas companies which we have the

folks from enabled emissions campaign in

the room with us today who are focused

on the fact that AI is not just a

problem because of the energy that it

consumes in data centers but also the

applications of AI. when tech companies

are partnering with oil and gas, what

does that mean when they're accelerating

um the you know exploration and drilling

of oil? Um so what are what are some of

the issues that you think people really

need to know about?

Man, where to begin? Um I think actually

where where to begin is maybe just one

word that has a lot of different

meanings is I like to just run into the

room and just be like power. You know,

we need to think about power and like

many senses of the word, right? I want

you to think about electric power for

sure because there is global data center

demand and I think like in the United

States specifically, don't 100% quote me

on this, but I think that there's a

forecast that data centers could consume

up to like 12% of our country's

electricity or something. Um you know

and it's really interesting because I'm

in kind of like the electric grid and

transmission space and there's all of

this talk about you know this technology

or this approach called demand response

which is shifting around electricity

loads in time and space and ideas about

data centers actually being a really big

part of that and enabling kind of like a

flexible grid that's optimized for

renewable energy. And I think that's

really interesting because I'm a demand

response fan girl. I think that we

should be doing demand response. I think

it's really cool. Um I think that you

know if there are data centers in the

public interest which is a whole

different conversation I think those

data centers should definitely do demand

response but doing that does not address

the deeper questions of like should we

actually be doing a free-for-all huge

buildout of these data centers that is

U-turning our country's energy policy

and prioritizing that instead of things

like housing at the state level. So, you

know, there are ways to kind of chip

away at some of these issues around

electricity use, maybe chip away at some

of these issues around water, but we're

not addressing that fundamental question

about the other aspect of power, which

is like who is benefiting from this,

right? Like our Five Guys in Silicon

Valley, is it really worth, you know,

the the costs that are being imposed

upon the public? So, I think that

there's um a lot of kind of unpacking to

do in terms of just like really basic

engineering design process questions

around like, you know, what are we

trying to do? what are the methods that

we need to kind of pursue it, who is

benefiting from this, where's the harm

going because it goes somewhere. um and

kind of trying to understand how to make

sense of that using frameworks actually

I think that can come from the

environmental justice movement because I

think that data centers are really

interesting example of locally

undesirable land use or the acronym is

Lulu's which is very fun to say in like

these very serious discussions you know

which is that like the um you know the

idea is that this locally undesirable

land use is presented as being or is

kind of serving the broader public good

but the costs are concentrated on one

specific neighborhood And so that's a

very complex conversation for things

that we need to keep society running

like what do we do with our waste,

right? And when you think about data

centers and again who's reaping the

benefits from this um I think to me it's

it's kind of clear but I think that you

know it depends on the specifics of the

situation. So yeah I'll I'll pause there

but there's a a lot more to get into.

No I wonderful

really amazing answer. So I I think

quite about the kind of stratification

of where data centers and other like

e-way sites go and what communities

they're placed in and then the uh

implications for those communities who

are already most of the time

marginalized. So let's stack more

marginalization on them. Whether it's

environmental, public health, of course,

and other impacts that um if we were

looking at other industries, we

mentioned oil and gas. We've seen those

impacts with like cancer clusters and

other asthma clusters and and other

kinds of impacts on the people

surrounding those. and noted that many

of them don't work for those

organizations. They're just getting the

awful the the runoff from the those

organizations. Right? So, we're talking

about ecology. We're starting we connect

the communities, the the organizations,

the data centers, but then we connect

like the impacts as well, right? So,

environmental, public health, labor, and

talking about zoning, right? So many of

the campaigns to get a data center, they

need to go through your local zone

zoning and the campaigns usually say,

"Hey, this will bring so many jobs into

this area. So, we need to reszone and we

want to we also want to have tax breaks

for these organizations." At the same

time, when we look at who's being hired

from those communities,

um there's not a real good ratio there.

It's usually people brought in with a

certain level of expertise or they just

don't just don't come with the amount of

jobs that they promise. So, this is

environmental issue as well, right? It's

the environment of the community is not

changed and actually is negatively

affected by those things.

Yeah, absolutely. And just thinking

about on a super mundane level the fact

that people who are living near data

centers are also paying higher energy

bills and higher water bills. And so uh

you know that can be a kind of

galvanizing moment too when people

realize that they're really being

screwed over by these companies that are

promising their local officials more

jobs um you know economic stimulation

and growth. But in reality, not only are

the tech companies getting massive

subsidies that are undermining local,

you know, tax revenue anyway, but

they're also not even producing many

jobs for people there at the same time

that people are paying higher bills. Um

and the I think you know as you were

pointing out Jasmine the public health

impacts are just astonishing because you

know as we were talking about earlier

even though there's a lot of focus right

now on renewable energy and there's a

lot of investment in things like nuclear

energy um and folks like Sam Alman

especially are um you know really hyping

the the possibilities of nuclear as a

way to provide really abundant and maybe

infinite uh forms of clean energy to

power as much AI as they could want and

we'll just cover the earth with data

centers. Um but I think what you know

the reality is that a lot of uh data

centers are relying on things like coal

and also on uh diesel fueled backup

generators because of the the strains on

the grid. And so, you know, if you're

living near these things, your, you

know, asthma is going to be affected.

You're going to, you know, deal with air

quality issues and noise pollution.

Like, these things are loud because of

the fans that are used to, you know,

cool the systems. Um, and you know,

these are just like massive massive

things that take up a lot of space and

really, uh, you know, change the

landscape. And I think you know when

we're talking about the cloud it can

feel so abstract from these like very

material realities. Um so I wanted to

get into maybe a question of like who is

actually benefiting and so Jenna you

were raising this question right. Um and

so you know what is the role of the

combination of tech companies which we

know are benefiting um and local

governments which we've also been

talking about is maybe you know being

enchanted by the line as they're being

fed by tech but also utility companies.

Um so h you know how do these different

actors kind of fit together um when

we're thinking about who is benefiting

and also maybe we can begin to think a

little bit about where we've seen

different kinds of resistance. So what

are the different strategies that people

might pick up to start fighting back? Um

I know that we have you know slightly

different perspectives here too because

Jasmine you're really bringing a legal

uh perspective and a policy perspective

and Sanjana you have such a practical

like engineering background too which I

think is amazing and community focused

um engineering which is really um kind

of groundbreaking um so thinking about

yeah site fights and the ways that data

centers have become really the material

manifestation of kind of the people

versus big tech. Um, yeah. What What can

people do?

Well,

yeah. No, I mean, I think to to kind of

get to that first question about, you

know, who's benefiting and like thinking

about all these different things, it's

such a fascinating political economy

question, right? Because I think it

brings in a little bit of the idea of

like market making by the state, you

know, when you look at the federal level

and kind of how tech companies and the

federal government are working together.

I think the benefits are like so

asymmetrical that it's kind of comical

honestly um you know just to see how

much again this very very small group of

people in Silicon Valley is just like do

not worry about it AI will solve all

your problems and I think that like you

know we we should be able to just kind

of ask basic operational questions about

like I mean how like when you say AI

what are you even talking about you know

like it's like using the word

transportation and you're talking about

a car and another person's talking about

a bike and another person's talking

about a rocket, right? Like specificity

is important. And I think getting into,

you know, some of the ideas around like,

yeah, what can we do? What are people

doing? I mean, there's so many really

great um examples we can look to. I know

like Louisiana is a site that has a

legacy of a lot of extractive industries

coming in and also a legacy of really

groundbreaking, really courageous,

really incredible frontline activism.

Um, you know, I think I think also, um,

there's like there's specific cases all

over the country. I know that there was

somewhere in Virginia which is home to

what's called data center alley which is

one of the highest concentrations of

data centers in the world. It's in

Northern Virginia because there's a big

subc internet cable that's a very big

sort of internet link that comes on

shore in Virginia and I think um

hopefully someone can fact check me on

this. I think it was like Pennsylvania

County in Virginia where there was a big

hypers scale data center that was being

proposed that was going to be powered by

gas turbines and the local community

actually just kind of treated it as a

public health crisis and we're just like

guys like this is bad. You know the

particulate matter pollution which as a

former air quality researcher is bad for

you not only in terms of asthma and like

respiratory diseases but particulate

matter also contributes to

neurodeenerative diseases. there are

clearer links forming around that. So,

it's just like it's a horrible

pollutant. And that community was able

to, you know, convince the zoning board,

I think, that like no, this is a public

health crisis. We should not do this.

And the data center didn't get approved.

Um, and so I think just kind of pointing

out like, look, does this make sense,

right? Everything has a cost. There's no

such thing as a free lunch as as they

say. Everything has an impact. But like

we can also be like, you know, have a

little bit of common sense around

saying, "Okay, but this impact is like

horrifying." Um I think in Oregon there

was a bill that was passed to kind of

try and stop the socializing of power

costs onto rateayers by the utility and

it's forcing um you know data centers to

actually own the energy costs of coming

online which it's kind of wacky that we

had to have separate legislation for

that but that's a again a separate

conversation about our power system. So

there's interesting ways, you know,

tackling different facets of the issue

that different people can get involved

depending on the specifics of the

situation. Lean into that specificity.

Think about the public health angle.

Think about the energy bill angle. Think

about the water angle. Think about the

notion of the democratic deficit and

wanting to participate in the democratic

process about infrastructure in your

neighborhood. So there's a lot we can

do. We don't have to accept the

inevitability of like, well, it's just

going to happen, you know, because Sam

Alman said it's going to happen. and you

know we can actually have a role to play

in the kind of society that we want to

live in.

Absolutely. I I think the exercise of

your first amendment rights are are

really fundamental to making sure that

not just obviously data centers and

environmental impacts of artificial

intelligence are impacted but just the

entire power structure that facilitates

the creation of these and and spread of

these systems work. So we talked about

Oregon, but Oregon there was there was

organizing to ensure that bill um at

least got got introduced and in in

Virginia there was or organizing about

the impacts of that those alleys in

Georgia there's organizing happening

about like do we want to have a nuclear

power plant and it's not and there was a

nuclear power plant promised in Georgia

and the utility company hasn't come in

on their promise and so you have people

paying more rates. So there's organizing

around that. So when people organize

they can we can impact systems of power

to ensure that we are not harming each

other more or amplifying the harm

related to technology.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean oh my god.

Yeah. there's you got to have that

relationship between community on the

ground organizing and learning from

environmental justice organizations that

have been doing that work for a long

time um against a lot of different but

similar foes um and then you know also

thinking about the policy responses and

I think what's been quite interesting so

my team is doing research in Virginia in

data center alley and looking at how

there's been just a ton of bills that

have gone through Virginia Not all of

them have been as successful. Um, but

the attempts at building more

responsible data centers and trying to

get the utility companies as well like

Dominion and Virginia to behave

and actually be transparent about what

they're doing. And that's the other

thing is using legal mechanisms to force

companies to be transparent. So using

FOYA, you know, getting information

about permits, so error permits, um

trying to understand,

you know, a lot of people don't even

realize which company is building a data

center where they live or even that it

is a data center until it's pretty late

in the process. But at the same time,

you know, if people are activated and

they are aware and you have people who

are kind of looking out and watching the

permitting process and you maybe have

people inside a local government who are

also concerned and doing that work and

activated to, you know, inform local

activist organizations too. Um, you can

have like 15 or 20 people showing up at

a town hall. This is what organizers in

Virginia have said. just enough to show

that people care and that can really

make a difference. So, you know, getting

people to turn out.

Yeah. I think it's to go along with the

question you asked a couple of questions

ago, which is what do people need to

know? Know your local government laws,

right? So, in Florida, we have sunshine,

we call them sunshine laws, which

basically means public records and

public meetings laws. So about notice

when meetings are going to happen, what

they're going to be talking about, but

also the records of those meetings and

and the law states in Florida when

there's two or three people on a

committee that are together that could

be considered a meeting. And so knowing

about the intricacies of your u state

public records, state public meetings is

really important for organizing and

people keeping people in power and

holding them uh to account.

Yeah. No, I mean plus one. Yeah. Yeah. I

think I think that that's that's an

important thing to remember is again

going back to like this vagueness,

right, of like, oh, it's AI, it's

inevitable. What are we even talking

about? I just really want to encourage

people to like challenge that and be

curious, you know, and really think

about in specific terms like what are we

speaking about when we talk about AI?

Why are we building infrastructure to

support that vision of AI? Because I

actually find that in many conversations

when the phrase AI, I can hardly even

say it without just waving my hands

around because it's really vague. when

we start to speak about what AI can and

can't do and what impacts it can or you

know can't have a lot of times it's just

a placeholder for issues that we have in

society more broadly right there's

questions about who has power in society

more broadly what are we going to do

about public health crises more broadly

and so if this is a jumping off point

for you to get really deep into an issue

area that you are passionate about I

think that's fantastic because this is

really a nexus of so many different

issues in like so many different ways

Yeah, definitely. We need more data. We

need more information. We need more

people activated and actually doing it.

Um, so now we will turn it over to the

audience for any questions that they may

have. I already see a hand. Um, so I

think the mites are going to go around.

So feel free to raise your hand to ask a

question. And the mites will be

circulating. I think I think we have

Okay. Sorry. Um, oh, also wanted to note

that on your seat there is an index

card, a material artifact, and you can

ask a question or comment um on

something that resonated with you and

you can also, you know, contribute

anonymously that way if you'd rather do

that instead of having a mic.

Hi, thank you very much for coming here

and speaking with us today. This has

been enlightening. Um, I have two

questions. Um we we've spoken about the

impacts obviously on the environment

this the community surrounding

um economic whether good or bad and

health. Um, so kind of the inverse to

what you guys are speaking about, what

is considered an ideal location then to

have these data centers that would

possibly lead to a win-win for both the

community, the political and the

economic and not have a terrible health

impact. And also I'm curious um as

someone who lives in New York, we all

deal with coned

and I'd like to understand

if

some of those places like Oregon that

you mentioned were able to someway

somehow carve out the electrical use

back so that it's traceable to them and

it's not then going to be offset by

raising the bill of the surrounding

community. How did how would that happen

in a place like New York or has it

happened in other places? So, it's a

twofold question, but I really want to

understand what is the ideal location.

Yeah. No, that is a great question

because I think that it's very important

and like a core aspect of like our work

at Rooted Futures Lab is like yeah, what

are we actually going to do, right?

because like there are a group of people

who have like a pretty in my view not so

great vision for the future and how do

we have a great vision for the future

that also deals with these complicated

realities. So I mean I think that one

big like precondition for your question

is just like scale and speed you know

because again like Tamara mentioned data

centers already exist they have existed

they're a huge part of the internet

which I use every single day um and I

think it's really just like this rapid

huge fast buildout for generative AI

that is kind of a lot of where my angst

is is that it takes time to plan energy

projects. It takes time to bring

projects online. How long does it take

to build renewable energy for example,

right? Apparently we can build data

centers really fast and it takes us a

long time to build carbon-f free

electricity projects. So I think to to

your question like a a good approach

from my perspective and going back to

this question of how can a data center

be in the public interest don't hold me

to this answer since this is a project

that I'm still working on. One it would

just be like not rushing and actually

being able to take the time to

understand like where is a good site. Um

I know for example Iowa is also seeing a

lot of data center buildout because they

have a lot of wind energy. Um and so

theoretically sure in a place that does

have a lot of carbon-f free electricity

you can plan a data center at a

reasonable pace in a place where you

know there's not a lot of drought. There

are mechanisms like community benefits

agreements which are by no means perfect

you know because it's complicated

contract law and there's some inherent

power dynamics in the negotiations. But

you could have something like a

community benefits agreement for a

developer coming into a community to

say, "Hey, what's up? I would like to

use your land for this purpose. What

would make it okay for me to use your

land?" Like, would you like a project

labor agreement? Would you like us to

pay a certain amount into a community

fund? Like, what would make it okay for

me to do this? So, I think like a good

example of a data center would have at a

bare minimum those characteristics. And

then to start to touch on the second

question, um what you know, uh an energy

situation around a data center would

look like in New York, there's actually

a group of people working on it. Um I'm

pretty sure that it's called like the

Sustainable Data Centers Act or

something that's in the New York State

Legislature.

That sounds right.

Something like that. Yes, if you look it

up, something similar to that should

come up. So there's actually a first

draft of a bill kind of proposing what

like a more positive vision for data

center buildout could look like

specifically in New York that I'd

encourage you to take a look at and see

if that helps answer your question

better than I could from here.

So I'm skeptical that there are ideal

places for a data center just because of

the way they're engineered currently. Um

how you have to cool uses currently the

way things are engineered uses water. um

that water doesn't go back necessarily

uh at the same rate into the system as

it came in. Right? So there's loss,

water loss. You don't get that back,

right? Um unless we we some data center

said we're going to start seeding clouds

and making it rain more. And I don't I

don't I don't you know I don't think

that's that's going to happen. So, how

they're currently created, how they're

currently designed, it's not it it's

just no, it's not ideal, right? But also

how they how how they pollute the off

gasing, right? Um, rip to our EPA,

right? We we had at times

we had at times, you know, really strong

air pollution

um standards. Uh we need we need to

perhaps rethink those again. Right. So

currently I'm skeptical that there's an

ideal place for data centers and other

connected

industry

areas. So

I mean there's like space pollution too.

So

space junk.

Yeah. Yeah. They are trying to put data

centers on the moon. But you know I you

know okay like

uh you know I'll believe it when I see

it. Um but you know Rocket fuel is also

really polluting. So

shooting up particular hard to get up

there. You know the maintenance will be

kind of carbon intensive I think. Yeah.

Um

I think I see another hand over here.

Hi. Um thank you so much for doing this.

Um from a background standpoint, I'm a

former Wall Street analyst that covered

natural gas and electric utilities. I've

been out of the field for about 20 years

now, but I know we're good in this

country at building things, but not

always good at maintaining them. And the

power grid, when I was covering that

sector, was always a concern that

there's too much strain on the power

grid. We can end up with rolling

blackouts, brown outs. Is that still

from an engineering um San John is that

you probably know more about that now in

the current state that is that still a

big concern and the pressure that these

data centers might cause um on the grid

um if they don't have their own power

source aligned with the projects. Is

that a concern that we'll see more brown

um rolling blackouts and brown outs with

this

type of thing?

Great great question. It is it is

already happening actually. So this past

summer in Northern Virginia again which

is the home to data center alley there

were rolling blackouts in some areas of

Northern Virginia. So yeah, I mean the

grid is like not in a great place

because exactly as you said, we don't do

basic maintenance on it, you know, it's

in the public interest to do that and we

don't um and so even without this huge

additional load from data centers, we

were already like not doing so hot. Um

and in other regions like California

where there's also like increased risk

of like wildfires from old

malfunctioning grit, like I think I

think that like on the basis of grid

infrastructure alone, we could be saying

pump the brakes. This is such a bad

idea. like why can we not address the

basic underlying infrastructure? So to

go back to the to the first question,

this is a large part of why I have a

huge issue with data center development

right now is because we're steamrolling

ahead here and kind of these basic

preconditions of do I don't know do

people have energy before the data

centers? Uh does can the grid at work

before the data centers? We we haven't

addressed any of those. So like in a

single answer to your question, yeah.

No, it's a problem.

Hi. Um, yeah, I've been thinking about I

think this is especially relevant to

Jasmine's work on rural AI, like how

there are areas in which, you know,

there's not great connectivity or maybe

there's not great um, you know, banking

resources and then these tech companies

come in with Starlink or Bitcoin or

Worldcoin and so on. So I guess like as

you know communities that are always

going to be less at least financially

resourced than these companies like how

do we prevent that from happening in

areas where you know there is this

genuine need that then is filled by

these tech companies with these um you

know these offerings that do actually

like meet that need but end up you know

creating this system of dependency.

Yeah. I don't know if they actually do

meet the need though. Um, I think they

promise to meet a need or or certain

specific things, but it always comes

with a price, right? And both actual

monetary prices, but in this case, we're

thinking environmental,

healthwise, labor-wise, changing the

whole I think

larger environment. I don't just mean

like flora fauna but like environment of

a town or a community for um whether

it's to do with zoning or just other

laws that make certain places attractive

right but cost the communities right I I

think there we talked about power there

needs to be a real concerted

um effort against powerful

uh things that parachute into

communities and change the landscape

that has to do I think a lot with um you

know want to have a conversation about

lobbying and and those kinds of issues

but that's a connected issue right who

has power who has money who can donate

who can you know put in infrastructure

that a community needs and what's the

cost though of that monetary but the

cost to the community about ways of life

and also environment and public health

in those things.

I have one back here.

Hello. Uh I guess given the lack of

enforcement interest and some of the

administrative roll backs of federal

environmental legislation. Are you

seeing state agencies stepping up under

state law to actually mount any

challenges? Are places the companies

building these data centers? Do you find

it like form shopping for friendlier

territories I guess that are blacks

around the environmental laws and

enforcement?

Uh yeah. So it has been interesting to

watch how this is playing out at the

state level because first of all there

are a lot of states that are even you

know deep red states that were very

invested in renewable energy

infrastructure.

Um and we've seen a lot of push back on

data center development even in states

like Indiana.

So you know I think there is an

opportunity here. So, okay. So, places

like Texas, which of course also really

have grid problems, um are going to be a

friendlier

uh development environment for tech

companies, including, you know, Elon

Musk, right, was able to build his

little company town um in the town from

which he launches his rockets. But, um,

I think what we're seeing is that other

states are really rallying to put out

bills that will protect constituents.

So, um, in California, there's a number

of bills, and I believe one just passed.

I haven't been able to catch up on the

news while I'm here. Um, but certainly,

you know, as we already mentioned, the

bill in Oregon that protected rateayers.

Um there's a ton of legislation that is

still some of it still pending in

Virginia. Um there's, you know, pretty

much leg legislation in every single

state right now, um both at the more

community or municipal level and at the

statewide level. So, um, you know, I I

think while we're certainly seeing a

federal, uh, environment where

essentially, um, any environmental

protections that were in place and

things like, you know, environmental

review processes are being cut and

curtailed, um, permitting is being, you

know, stripped away in terms of the

oversight that would ordinarily oversee

the process. But the truth is that it

still takes a long time to actually

build stuff in a lot of cases. So even

with the, you know, attempts at rapid

expansion, there are just material

barriers to actually getting this stuff

done. Um, and so I think there is still

room for push back

right here.

Um yeah, I I just wanted to ask you how

you feel about using the technology to

better navigate the issues that you've

raised. Um I'm an author and for me

copyright breach was was a big thing and

I actually found it

um more illuminating to talk with the

machine about those issues than with

actual copyright lawyers. So

I I learned more from it.

I mean, I can I can get started. Yeah. I

don't I mean, um, first, right, like to

each their own. Um, you know, I I think

that, um, it's kind of there's this

really interesting parallel, I think, to

like the plastic industry, you know,

where like there's a lot of individual

pressure to be like, how many water

bottles have you consumed this year?

when really we should be pointing our

finger at the plastic company and being

like, "How many plastic water bottles

have you produced this year?" What? Um,

you know, so I think like an individual

person typing in a single query into

like a chatbot is not going to make me

lose any sleep. Um, but I also just kind

of urge caution and common sense and

factchecking because you know chat bots

like chat GPT are large language models

and there was I think a recent paper I

can't remember which tech company it

came from because I feel like I'm

swimming in articles about like these

papers from tech companies but a recent

one basically saying that like

hallucinations so like false information

because large language models they're

predicting right that like oh it's

likely that if this person put in this

string of text this word after this word

after this word after this word. It's

likely that I should say this word after

this word after this word after this

word. Um this paper uh you know

concluded that like hallucinations

madeup info is like a mathematical

inevitability. So um I would just say

again right like do do what you want but

be informed um about it. If you found it

illuminating you know and were able to

use that as a positive step in your

journey great. Just fact check

everything that you know that came out

of there. Um, I've tried it several

times. Um, you know, because I want to

understand. I want to know what I'm up

against. I'm a grad student. Uh, I'm I

feel I face a lot of pressure actually

to use like generative AI tools. Um, but

like at my core, I'm kind of a hater and

I just don't want to give like I just

don't want to support like the dudes who

are behind these companies, you know?

So, that's my take.

All right. We have time for a few more.

Um, I actually had a question around the

kind of consumer side of Gen AI and uh,

I totally agree and empathize with like

I don't know fast fashion, Sheen, and

like the issues ultimately with the

production of it, but I think there's

also the reality that there is the

consumer demand given the kind of like

how lowly they're priced exc uh, etc. So

I'm curious in terms of like what a

sustainable economic model of AI would

look like. Would it be that people would

have to pay to to use it as well? But

because there is just like so much usage

of it that's grown so much that I'm sure

is also promoting some aspect but not

all aspects of the the data center being

built.

I'll go a little I mean yeah uh no it's

a a great question. So I think the the

problem of consumer demand I mean part

of it is also that AI generative AI

specifically is being integrated into so

many things that we use all the time

without our consent and it can be very

difficult to change settings to avoid AI

uh results even if you don't want them.

Uh, and also, you know, I had an issue

with my baggage with United the other

day. Um, and I was talking to the

chatbot and you know, I was like, "Give

me the [ __ ] human. Give me the

[ __ ] human." And then it's like, "I

don't understand your response. I'm

sorry. Can you do you need one of these

five menu options?" Um, and I I think

this is also the problem like a in a lot

of cases we're being force-fed AI models

that are not actually very equipped to

do the thing that they're purportedly

doing. And then they're also putting

people out of jobs. Um, and so I, you

know, I think there is something to be

said though that, you know, a lot of

people are using generative AI obviously

for a lot of different things. Um but

eventually looking at the economic model

anyway I think that people are going to

end up having to pay for it. Um the the

current way that AI is being funded is

also not sustainable. So I think you

know that will be the reality for a lot

of uh the AI products that people are

used to now.

Uh I would just like to add that AI

companies are also advertising

companies. If we look at like how AI has

been and generative AI in particular has

been sold to people, how it's been

framed as this like panacea for finding

out information, summarizing

information. I have to tell students

like listen

no uh just like like you know you it's

sold to people as this great thing. It's

framed as this really important and

useful and and so it it can be some of

those things, but at the same time the

cell is you have to use it. You're

pressured to use it. If you're not using

it, you're going to be left behind in,

you know, at work and at school and and

so there's pressure to use it. So

consumers are using it because they feel

like they have to use it because it's

been sold as such. So I would just add

that into the conversation about

consumerism as well.

Okay, last question. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Good evening everybody. I'm wondering

from hey

um from a community level as someone

actively engaged in this fight in

Louisiana in Memphis what are some ways

in which we can share what's actually

happening? How can we cut through some

of this noise and let folks know hey we

are down here we are fighting this thing

um it's not as inevitable as it feels.

Yeah. So what is I mean social media is

still really a really good and useful

tool for organizing and for telling the

story. So you want to tell the story of

what's happening in Memphis, you want to

tell the story what's happening in

Louisiana. Social media has still been a

really great place. Now the the places

where you tell that story, you have to

choose choose wisely. But people are

still are getting that word of

organizing the more local news um like

Mississippi free press and and those

local um nonprofit funded news are are

really building audiences on different

social media sites that are telling the

stories about data centers about AI

pollution and harms. And so I think

those places are still good places, but

also those third places in the

communities, the libraries, the barber

shops and and salons, those other places

that we have forgotten a lot about, but

are still super useful for telling the

story and organizing and getting people,

you know, equipped to deal with stuff.

That's all the time we have. That's all

the time we have. Do you guys want to

wrap up?

Sure. Yeah. Well,

I was excited, you know, I was ready

like let's do some public education,

including what we're doing right now.

Um, but yeah, I So, today I think we had

a really interesting conversation that,

you know, touched on the idea that AI is

an ecology that we have to think about

the labor conditions and the materials

uh that go into the production of AI as

well as the, you know, applications of

AI. and its ramifications in the

material world. Uh we were also thinking

about AI as an infrastructure and

thinking about the relationship between

generative AI data centers in particular

as these sites where we really see the

relationship between natural resources

and um you know energy, water, critical

minerals and uh the technology that

we're increasingly being asked to use

every day. Um, and then finally, the

idea that AI is really about power. Um,

and it's also, you know, not just about

the power that big tech companies have

or utility companies like PG&E is who we

really hate in California. Um, thinking

about the power that they have, but then

also the power that we have. And so, you

know, what does it mean to fight back

against a handful of billionaires who

are determining what the Earth's

resources are being used for right now?

And I think we have covered a number of

different options that people can take

in order to really think about

organizing in their own communities,

whatever they may look like.

So, thank you all.